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Author Topic:   Unique DDT Designer - EZGUI Layout Designer
Chris Boss
Administrator
posted 09-03-2008 02:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chris Boss     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
I am still working on the EZGUI Studio Dialog Designer, which will be Event based like the Utility Designer. It will have a lot more library code and will handle the common controls.

I am also working on another DDT Designer, specifically for use with PB 9.0 and a bit different.

It would be called:

EZGUI Layout Designer

The code generation would work differently.

(1) The code would not use any library code in an include file.

(2) It would not be Event based, but would use Control Callbacks and a normal Dialog Procedure, for Forms/controls.

(3) It would generate more inline DDT code, similiar to how it would look if you hand coded it, rather than Library calls, for control creation.

(4) Control Messages would be handled using standard DDT style coding using standard API notification messages.

The purpose of the Designer is for use by those who prefer a more conventional style of DDT coding and so people can post complete DDT apps on the PB forums. Since the Designer would not use any library code, you would be able to freely distribute the full source code to an application.

Another aspect of the Designer, would be more plugin features, so users can create their own coding plugins to solve problems and share them with one another and on the PB forums.

The purpose of this Designer, would be to make laying out DDT programs much easier, while not overloading the Designer with more advanced features found in my library code. Users will have to learn common API techniques used by most DDT programmers to write code, but they won't have to worry about laying out the forms and controls, since it can be done visually.

Also the Template feature would be expanded, so users can create their own custom templates and then share them with others.

The Designer would be low cost, but easily extensible via templates, plugins, etc. I want to encourage a lot of users to develop tools to use with the designer and share them (either as freeware, open source or even as commercial tools).

The idea is to use my Designer technology to create the basis for visual designing, while others can build upon it.

Any thoughts about this idea ?


[This message has been edited by Chris Boss (edited 09-03-2008).]

Eddy Van Esch
Member
posted 09-03-2008 04:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eddy Van Esch     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Chris,

So this new designer will basically be a direct competitor to PBForms ?

Just a few questions (from an existing EZGUI 4.0 Pro user).

1) This new DDT designer, would that be a 'twin brother' of the EZGUI 4.0 Designer ? Atleast what the use of it is concerned.
For example, will it have the smart parser technology to switch between (any) code editor and the designer ? Will it have the same look and feel ? This namely would make the transition for EZGUI 4.0 users to this new designer very easy and comfortable.

2) Code reuse: Would the new designer be able to (partially) import existing EZGUI 4.0 forms ?
I know it is not the idea to generate functionally equivalent code but atleast the forms skeletons should be able to be imported ?

3) How far will you go in 'copying' the more advanced EZGUI features ? Such as ownerdrawn buttons and the canvas ?

4) This is not a question but a suggestion.
I am currently a bit confused about all the different products that you are selling right now.
More specific: Which ones are they exactly, what are they named and what exactly do they do? I am a lurker on your forums (due to the fact that the last few years I haven't been doing any relevant GUI programming) so I am a little up to date, but I am still confused:
DDT designer, EZGUI personal version, DDT Studio, New DDT designer...
I took a peek on your website only to find that actually 2 products were listed: EZGUI Pro and EZGUI Personal Version, and then the various freeware designers.
So here my suggestion:
If, one day, you would feel a little tired writing code, just take one or two days to clean up your web site and make it up to date.
Build a few nice clean pages that clearly list all your available (and even future!) products, and add a link to their detailed feature list.
Us 'veteran EZGUI users' are likely to find our way to your newest products, but I can imagine that newcomers are now confused when they browse your site looking for your products.
It will benefit your sales !!

Kind regards
------------------
Eddy
www.devotechs.com -- HIME Huge Integer Math and Encryption library

[This message has been edited by Eddy Van Esch (edited 09-03-2008).]

Chris Boss
Administrator
posted 09-03-2008 05:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chris Boss     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Good questions.

First, all my latest DDT Designers are based on the EZGUI 4.0 Visual Designer (I reused the original 4.0 Pro designer code and then modified it to handle DDT).

The DDT Designers can read EZGUI 4.0 Pro form files.

Features specific to EZGUI 4.0 Pro are removed from the DDT Designers, since they would not be able to support them via generated code (ie. ownerdraw Buttons, Canvas control, Properties Listbox control, etc.).

What would be useful for DDT design is left in the Designers.

So why so many different designers ?

EZGUI 4.0 Professional is my top of the line Visual Designer and will remain so. The reason is that the more advanced features really can only be done using a runtime engine. This is what makes EZGUI 4.0 Pro different from its competitors. The runtime engine is the best way to handle such complexities. While other Designers come close in some features, like FireFly (in such things as common control support), they don't compare to the level of features found in EZGUI 4.0 Pro (ie. ownerdraw engine, graphics engine, print engine, thread engine and so much more).

There are two reasons to create other Visual Designers, particularly using DDT.

(1) EZGUI 4.0 Pro's price is out of reach of many.

(2) Many prefer a 100% source code solution (no runtimes).

While a 100% source code designers could never compare to EZGUI 4.0 Pro, they can though offer solutions to a much larger market, not currently tapped by EZGUI 4.0 Pro.

The first commercial DDT Designer released is the EZGUI Utility Dialog Designer. It is actually based on the coming EZGUI Dialog Designer Studio which will offer many more advanced features and controls (ie. common controls). It offers a low cost solution. It also is way to get some feedback which will benefit the Studio Designer while I am finishing it up. The Studio Designer will cost more, but will not be any where near the price of EZGUI 4.0 Pro (I am thinking of somewhere from $79 to $99).

Both of these Designers offer a low cost solution, 100% source code solution (no runtimes) and DDT compatibility so one can use all the new DDT commands in PB 8.0 and 9.0.

So why another DDT Designer besides these ?

The Utility and Studio Designers have two aspects which may not be desirable to DDT programmers.

(1) They depend upon a source code library of routines to work and those libraries can not be distributed to other parties (they are copyrighted material).

(2) They are Event based, similiar to EZGUI 4.0 Pro. I prefer their Event based style of coding, but many who have put a lot of time into learning DDT and the API, may not.

So this brings me to the EZGUI Layout Designer:

Why call it a Layout designer ?

Because it is not meant to replace a GUI engine. It won't offer a bunch of API wrappers, library code, etc. It will be purely based on DDT and will generate 100% inline code (no calls to library code).

Its purpose is simply for GUI layout and no more. GUI design will be quick and clean.

So what makes it different from PB Forms ?

The Smart Parser !

The Designer uses the same Smart Parser technology found in EZGUI 4.0 Pro. This will make GUI design (or layout) much easier and faster, even for beginners.

Those who are new to the Windows API, won't have to worry about a lot of API terms when designing visually. No window styles are refered to in the designer, just like EZGUI 4.0 Pro.

The difference is that the designer will convert the easy to design GUI to DDT code for you and you don't have to worry about how it works.

Now this is where is gets interesting.

Since no library code is used, you will be able to distribute the entire source code to your apps to others or post it on the PB forums. This can't be done with my other commercial DDT designers.

I will be enhancing the extensibility of the code generator, so users can easily create extensions to the designer to add their own code and to generate support code. This improved extensibility should allow users to share code via templates, plugins, etc. to allow the community of PB'ers to enhance the designer beyond its basic functions.

Lastly the Designer will not use events, but will generate pure dialog procedure and control callback code, which most DDT users are familiar with. I believe this will be preference for most DDT'ers.


So each Designer will service a different target group of PB'ers.


Eddy Van Esch
Member
posted 09-03-2008 06:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eddy Van Esch     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
>Lastly the Designer will not use events, but will generate pure dialog procedure and control callback code,
---- What exactly is the difference between 'event style' and 'DDT style' ? Isn't Windows based entirely on events ?

I personally, intend to stick to EZGUI Pro for my GUI work.
My primary reason for this is:
Maximum program performance with minimum coding effort.
But for an occasional demo program, it would be nice to have a tool that can generate source-code-only (without a runtime dll). And preferably (for me atleast) this tool should resemble as close as possible the EZGUI 4.0 Pro Designer AND code ...
With 'code' I mean the general structure of the generated program.

So, taking the EZGUI 4.0 Pro designer as reference, the DDT designer that closest resembles this (in performance and use) would be the 'EZGUI Dialog Designer Studio' ?

Kind regards
------------------
Eddy
www.devotechs.com -- HIME Huge Integer Math and Encryption library

[This message has been edited by Eddy Van Esch (edited 09-03-2008).]

Gary Stout
Member
posted 09-03-2008 07:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gary Stout     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Chris,

The idea sounds fine, but I personally will stick to the event style programming.....no time to try to learn api calls, callbacks and all of that stuff. The event style really simplifies this in my opinion.
While I don't have a problem with you coming up with new products to satisfy the need of various programming styles, I am really waiting on the Studio Designer and I hate to see your efforts be diverted in another direction and put this on hold. I don't have any idea....maybe you are close to completion of the SD...then I have no problem with the Layout Designer, even though it not something that I would use.

Gary

Chris Boss
Administrator
posted 09-03-2008 08:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chris Boss     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
While my current customers may not find this designer as interesting to them as the others, there is a large PB market I have not tapped yet and the more customers I get, the more resources available for further development of EZGUI Pro, which is my mainstay product. This ultimately benefits EZGUI pro users in the long run.

JoeByrne
Member
posted 09-04-2008 03:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JoeByrne     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
quote:

(1) They depend upon a source code library of routines to work and those libraries can not be distributed to other parties (they are copyrighted material).

Wow. I purchased the Dialog Designer mistakenly thinking that it generated pure and un-copyrighted source code. Fortunately, I've never developed anything with it to be distributed as freeware. I never noticed that the EZLIB4UT.inc file was not distributable.

With this knowledge in hand, I have to say that I no longer see a benefit to me for the dialog studio version. My motivation for one of these designers was to be able to produce code that could be freely distributed to others.

On that note, I'd have to say that I would be very uninterested in a "pure distributed code" product that wasn't based on the EZGUI coding style. If I'm going to have to learn a new method, I'm far more likely to look at a totally different product like FireFly (which is gaining quickly on the EZGUI command set) or PBForms. Both of which have 100% re-distributable source code and no run-time libraries. I really couldn't care less about needing a DLL or 10 DLLs, but available source code is becoming a very big issue for me.

TomCone
Member
posted 09-04-2008 03:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomCone     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Chris, could elaborate on your answer to the PbForms question?

quote:
So what makes it different from PB Forms ?

The Smart Parser !

The Designer uses the same Smart Parser technology found in EZGUI 4.0 Pro. This will make GUI design (or layout) much easier and faster, even for beginners.


Chris Boss
Administrator
posted 09-04-2008 04:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chris Boss     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
I don't know if PB Forms can be used with Code Editors other than the PB IDE, but the Smart Parser can. It can be used with JellyFish for example.

I haven't worked with PB Forms much, but I don't know how smooth the merge process is when changing GUI code. I think the Smart Parser may be a little more smooth and clean.

The Designer will be much easier to work with, since it won't reference things like window styles. It will simply display easy to understand properties, similiar to EZGUI, so the user can make more sense out of it.

The Designer also has smart options which allow you to eliminate certain types of code, such as color or font code.

I have to say, this new Designer is coming along nicely and I may put the Studio Designer on hold for a little bit to finish this one.

I was also thinking of changing the name to something other than EZGUI (something) Designer. The Utility Designer and the comming Studio Designer are more like EZGUI in code style and events, so they should continue to use the EZGUI name. Then EZGUI 4.0 Pro users can have alternative for creating apps with no runtimes, which allows similiar coding style (saves learning time).

This new Designer will be for the non-EZGUI programmers who want a DDT solution which is easy to use, yet powerful and also supports the PB 9.0 command set. There is a big market for this.

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